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onegemini
Junior Member
USA
181 Posts |
 Posted - 10/22/2003 : 12:10:32 AM
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This post is to everyone. I recently came across this site;
www.teachingcomics.org
JKS is barely mentioned on it. When I addressed this issue, (in this thread - http://www.teachingcomics.org/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?s=3f95ff345d836dae&act=ST&f=5&t=116&st=0#entry483) I was given this response;
"I see JK School as more of a trade school. NACAE's mission is to champion comics in higher education (colleges and Universities). Judging from JK school's catalogue, it appears their focus is on very specific genres of comics, the ones favored by the larger publishng(sic) houses."
Do you think this is fair? Follow the link and post your own opinion on this (and read mine). Is JKS not "higher education." He seems to think so, as he's put the seperation between Trade School and Higher Education.
Get JKS the recognition it deserves.
"Life is a comedy to those who think, and a tragedy to those who feel."
oneGemini Illustration
onegemini.com |
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JamesK
Junior Member
378 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2003 : 2:45:03 PM
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I hate to say it but in some ways I agree. The teaching staff at the school does change over the years so our experiences may be different but I rarely had a class or assignment at the school that was presented in a context that extended beyond commercial applications. ANd there was no real concerted effort to examine the history of the medium. That has always been one of my criticisms of the school. It is more focussed on practical commercial applications rather than advancing comics as a creative medium. I never had a class, with the exception of perhaps a lesson by Alex Stevens, that really approached comics as a creative language in the way a film or english course would examine the theories and structure of their related mediums. They don't even bother with the essential texts of the medium like Understanding Comics. To me comics is a storytelling medium and while I greatly respect many of the instructors I think there is vast gulf between what they do and what someone like James Sturm or Joe Sacco does. The Kubert school invites Joe Quesada and Mike Carlin as guests. The other schools on that site invite people like Art Spiegelman. The priorities of these school seem farely clear to me in relation to each other. I don't think that is a put down. I know lot's of dedicated and intelligent individuals who attended the school but I just don't think the school is that interested in producing the next Chris Ware (Indeed many of the students and teachers don't even know who Ware is). and doesn't really fit into the mission of that organization. However, for the life of me I still can't find the links section they say the school is mentioned in.
Edit: nevermind, I found the links.
Edit 2: And thinking back there were trips to museums but again a day trip to wander through the Met isn't exactly an education in art,(More of a nice supplement) especially when a large proportion of the students wander off to see the sites of NY instead.
Edited by - Jamesk on 10/22/2003 3:05:39 PM |
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onegemini
Junior Member
USA
181 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2003 : 9:42:33 PM
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quote:
I hate to say it but in some ways I agree. The teaching staff at the school does change over the years so our experiences may be different but I rarely had a class or assignment at the school that was presented in a context that extended beyond commercial applications. ANd there was no real concerted effort to examine the history of the medium. That has always been one of my criticisms of the school. It is more focussed on practical commercial applications rather than advancing comics as a creative medium. I never had a class, with the exception of perhaps a lesson by Alex Stevens, that really approached comics as a creative language in the way a film or english course would examine the theories and structure of their related mediums. They don't even bother with the essential texts of the medium like Understanding Comics. To me comics is a storytelling medium and while I greatly respect many of the instructors I think there is vast gulf between what they do and what someone like James Sturm or Joe Sacco does. The Kubert school invites Joe Quesada and Mike Carlin as guests. The other schools on that site invite people like Art Spiegelman. The priorities of these school seem farely clear to me in relation to each other. I don't think that is a put down. I know lot's of dedicated and intelligent individuals who attended the school but I just don't think the school is that interested in producing the next Chris Ware (Indeed many of the students and teachers don't even know who Ware is). and doesn't really fit into the mission of that organization. However, for the life of me I still can't find the links section they say the school is mentioned in.
Edit: nevermind, I found the links.
Edit 2: And thinking back there were trips to museums but again a day trip to wander through the Met isn't exactly an education in art,(More of a nice supplement) especially when a large proportion of the students wander off to see the sites of NY instead.
Then it really has changed over there. I had Alec Stevens as well, and he certainly wasn't the only teacher who expanded our horizons as far as love of the medium went. I'm sorry to hear that those teachers are gone.
We went to the Met as well, but as far as I remembered, no one wandered off. We actually had a small report to give on what we saw, thus assuring those of us who might have the urge to wander off, wouldn't.
Understanding Comics was pushed, but not required during my stay. I had read it on my own previous to that.
I don't think Art would ever show up. I met him at a forum at Dartmouth College, and he seemed to have a distaste (hate is to strong a word) for JKS. He didn't go into why. Tho' I'd imagine it goes along with his hate of the Simpsons, South Park, and things he refered to as "not art" during his speech. I thought that very odd coming from him, because, while a philosophical question, "what is art," it's as one Social Studies teacher put it "Art is what is." Is meaning "is percieved to be." Eye of the beholder, and all that. But that's a whole 'nother discussion.
If the school has really changed that much, then it's very sad, and that's all I have to say about that.
"Life is a comedy to those who think, and a tragedy to those who feel."
oneGemini Illustration
onegemini.com |
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JamesK
Junior Member
378 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2003 : 11:39:29 PM
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Yeah, Spiegelman was just one name I threw out on the spot ( and now that you mention it the idea that he would visit the school does seem a little unlikely). I do believe that there may be some snobbery involved against the Kubert school..I mean I've heard multiple pros say that SVA is a waste of time despite it's history of notable teachers.
Actually, besides Alec Stevens, Mike Kraiger did make attempts to educate my class about comics history. Before any trips he'd hand out info on the place we were visiting and he would often bring in books like the Smithsonian comic strip collection or the latest Eightball. In 2nd year I was unfortunate to be in a class that was largely preoccupied by the mainstream stuff and with some exceptions resistent to going beyond that. Which I know was not true for the class I started out with in 1st year. Those guys were looking at all sorts of stuff and very interested in the range of work in and out of the comics medium and both "mainstream" comics nad otherwise.
But overall I'd have to say that most of the instructors kind of slacked off in this department.
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onegemini
Junior Member
USA
181 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2003 : 05:40:02 AM
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quote:
Yeah, Spiegelman was just one name I threw out on the spot ( and now that you mention it the idea that he would visit the school does seem a little unlikely). I do believe that there may be some snobbery involved against the Kubert school..I mean I've heard multiple pros say that SVA is a waste of time despite it's history of notable teachers.
Actually, besides Alec Stevens, Mike Kraiger did make attempts to educate my class about comics history. Before any trips he'd hand out info on the place we were visiting and he would often bring in books like the Smithsonian comic strip collection or the latest Eightball. In 2nd year I was unfortunate to be in a class that was largely preoccupied by the mainstream stuff and with some exceptions resistent to going beyond that. Which I know was not true for the class I started out with in 1st year. Those guys were looking at all sorts of stuff and very interested in the range of work in and out of the comics medium and both "mainstream" comics nad otherwise.
But overall I'd have to say that most of the instructors kind of slacked off in this department.
Hm, can't say that I knew Mike Kraiger or if he was even teaching during my stay.
As far as the students, I was lucky to be in a group (and this remained constant thru my 3 years) that ran the gamut from people who worshiped the mainstream, to people who were hardcore underground/independent fans, to people who were just there for a commercial art background (and the handful of animators). So we never had a real problem being stuck in the mainstream.
"Life is a comedy to those who think, and a tragedy to those who feel."
oneGemini Illustration
onegemini.com |
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ProfHeff
Starting Member
USA
10 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2003 : 3:51:09 PM
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I have to answer this in two posts ..sorry..it may be a little long.
You know, I constantly am amazed at the discussion whether comic book art is art. Yes, it is but, quite honestly, it's COMMERCIAL art. Period. If any person comes to you and says, I'm going to publish comics and they don't care if they make money or not is full of ....well, you know what I mean. I'm sure that even Dave Sim, who has self published for a gazillion years, is aware that financing your own publishing outfit costs MONEY !! Which I'm sure he tried to help finance by publishing trades, that little card game he had, etc.
I've had arguments with people about what the difference is between commercial art and fine art and what I've come to understand is that fine artists die broke and if you get paid for your work, you're a commercial artist....like Picasso. Sorry, I don't consider him a fine artist. He certainly didn't die a poor man. Yeah, yeah..I know...he developed and helped push 'modern' art but I think he just saw a copy of a Wayne Boring Bizarro strip in the fifties and came up with his style of art !! Well, OK...maybe he didn't, but the point is the Kubert School isn't there just to take your money and a considerable investment of your time, train you and then send you out to make burgers at McDonalds....it's to educate you in ways that will allow you to have a future in some type of art career.
And as far as first year students are concerned, the only thing they SHOULD be seriously focusing on IS mainstream comics (or animation) so they can understand how hard the work is and how time consuming the job can become and hopefully will, if a student becomes a professional, allow them to pay their own rent. I'm not saying to keep a closed mind and don't let students look at 'independent' books...but definetly focus on the 'bread and butter' of the business. By the way...is it me or were independent comics called undergrounds at one time? In other words...underground comics were published mainly by Denis Kitchen..which became Kitchen Sink Press...a business. Oh...and what about that little independent comic publisher, Image...weren't they at one time a BIG business? And let's not talk about Fantagraphics (which I happen to like many of their publishing ventures)...it's a BUSINESS !!
I remember giving a speech at the Kubert School with one of my partners. At the time, when comics were exploding, we had a chain of comic book stores and we were asked to come to the school and give a speech of the business of selling product...which in our case was comics. What we felt the business would be like in the long term, what consumers were buying , etc. The first thing we did was asked the students what they felt the future was. Their answer...Image and Valiant Comics. We then informed the students that they were literally out of their minds. Image, at the time, "shook up" the comic publishing world.
Now...if this works..look below...
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ProfHeff
Starting Member
USA
10 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2003 : 4:00:15 PM
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To continue:
Do you know what was (and still is) one of the long term sellers....Archie. Second up...Superman, Batman and Spider-Man...in that order. Now, understand what I just said....LONG TERM. And these books are publisg=hed by companies that will pay you money as long as you make them money. The "HOT" artist or book today will become forgotten, unemployed or no longer published...unless, of course, you're reliable...and even being reliable is not a lock on a paycheck...but is sure helps. We knew that from the get-go. The Kubert School, in my opinion, gives you that long-term outlook. Heck...can anyone even remember Valiant (except for that beautiful Barry Windsor-Smith stuff)? Anyway, that's what we told the students then and I think it still holds true today. The mainstream companies are your main source of income.
You know, if someone wants to 'champion comics in higher education' that's just fine ...but I hope they like living in their parent's house when they're forty. Now, if you're successful in the comic book business and want to take up that cause or 'transcend comics to a different level' and can afford to do that, even better. But the only way that you're successful is by 'making it' as an artist. That means getting paid. And I'll bet that Art Spiegelman isn't starving. Hey, I wonder..did Spiegelman get paid to be at that forum at Dartmouth ?
So...if you want to self-publish or do stuff on your own...fine. But you have to look at so many creator-owned objects by the BIG names in the business that just didn't fly. Thank goodness they had a regular paycheck from a job they did for a major compant that got them by.
So, I am CERTAINLY going to reply to this NACAE website and tell them that JKS is ABOVE their standards and definition of 'higher education'. I mean, after all, if you're going to some other tootie-falooty school that teaches this higher education, well, what are you going to school for...oh, wait, I know...to learn something that will MAKE YOU MONEY (after, of course, these other pompous schools of higher education, take YOUR money).
JKS...probably the best art school for comics out there today !!
See ya' all !!
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DAMON
Average Member
New Zealand
515 Posts |
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ProfHeff
Starting Member
USA
10 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2003 : 4:53:26 PM
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Hey...now ya' got me in the mood for pizza for dinner...but I'm glad I also looked at your web-site...great stuff !!
Enjoy your pizza...I know I'm gonna !!
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JamesK
Junior Member
378 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2003 : 01:27:13 AM
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ProfHeff, don't get me wrong. I don't look down on commercial mainstream work and I think a good majority of indy creators do not look down on it. (since we all at the very least aspire to make it our profession). I don't think your (condescending)comments in this regard would come as any great revelation to any of the parties involved here. The "you have to pay the bills" argument is not at all what ,I at least, am getting at. I think the characterization of the discussion as some snooty idealisic fine art mentality stereotype disdaining commercial work completely misses the point. As I said in my post, the approach of the school and the approach of these schools to the medium of comics is different. That is not a value judgement.
Call it an aesthetic or philisophical difference ( or one of educational terminology). The emnphasis of the Kubert school is alomost exclusively on commercial work, primarily work-for-hire. The emphasis of a Unviersity course would take in commercial and business considerations but also examine the medium itself and it's creative applications. Chris Ware, Joe Sacco, Peter Kuper, Art Spiegelman all make money off art in some capacity ( and I would seriously disagree that the best hope of a comic artist is Marvel and DC) but that is not exclusive to their explorations of the comics medium. But their approach is considerably different than that of someone who's dream is to pencil Batman. Neither is necessarily more valid but they are certainly different.
Your argument that a first year student at the Kubert school needs to learn and focus exclusivelly on adapting scripts for Marvel or DC highlights these differences. A novelist is preparing to enter a competetive and demanding commercial feild but that does not mean they don't take the time to learn the history and mechanics of their medium or develope a creative voice. "mainstream comics" is just one limited approach to creating comics and by starting from there you may think you are helping the creator but creativelly you are impeding them. For some people the reality of economic necessity is recognized but that does not dull their love for comics as a medium. They recognize the need to do work simply to get a check but they still do not see comics exclusivelly as an industry, and do not define it by that paycheck.
You want to talk long term commercial success represented by Batman and Superman. Well how many Kubert students are working on those books right now? How well are these "long time sellers" doing when it comes to sales numbers? How interested is the general public in reading a Batman comic book? How many discussions are popping up in the industry asking how can we possibly attract new readers to bring those sales up? ( and how often is the answer diversity that goes beyond super heros) How many opportunities are there in general at DC and Marvel for steady employment? If you want a job on one of those books than that means displacing some other creator like Jim Lee. As this ever shrinking industry continues to suffer for lack of interest you really have to wonder how secure a career opportunity in any part of the industry will be. The odds of regular employment at Marvel or DC is pretty slim.
quote:
You know, if someone wants to 'champion comics in higher education' that's just fine ...but I hope they like living in their parent's house when they're forty.
See. You just aren't getting it. Dan Clowes, Dave Cooper, Chris Ware among other creators are not living in their parent's basements. They are using the medium for the purpose that is being "championed" and making a living doing it. And I have no doubt that along the way they have had to use their skills for other commercial purposes to do that. Having a respect for the medium and literary or artistic aspirations is not exclusive to commercial work or comercial success. However, when you have a school that focusses exclusivelly on commercial considerations you are missing something that provides for the creative ambitions. Chiefly a critical well developed aesthetic sensibility formed by study of the medium and it's history and it's use in executing creative works. But the Kubert school doesn't do that. BECAUSE IT IS NOT THAT TYPE OF SCHOOL. That's fine. No one ever said it was supposed to be. For the most part I am comfortable with that and value what I did get from the school. But there is no reason being defensive when people simply state this, and in the end it appears the ommision had more to do with oversight than anything else.
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onegemini
Junior Member
USA
181 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2003 : 03:29:29 AM
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And speaking of people not living in their parents basements, lets look at the advisory board of the NACAE;
"Advisory Board
The NACAE advisory board is composed of leaders in the field of comics and education whose knowledge and insight is invaluable.
Will Eisner
Groundbreaking cartoonist who authored A Contract with God and Comics and Sequential Art. He is the creator of The Spirit and has been writing and drawing comics for over sixty years.
Robert Gross
Dean of Swarthmore College.
Scott McCloud
Cartoonist and author of Understanding Comics, the definitive critical guide to comics.
Trina Robbins
Cartoonist and historian and author of The Great Women Cartoonists and From Girls to Grrlz: A History of Women's Comics from Teens to Zines.
Art Spiegelman
Author of the Pulitzer Prize-winning Maus and a regular contributor to The New Yorker."
These are people who can actually effect change where they want to. They aren't just a bunch of "basement nerds" who want to get comics out into mainstream college cirricula because it'd be fun. The steering committe of the NACAE is just as impressive and interesting. Perhaps they will meet their goals. That's fine. It's certainly not why I started the thread.
I just wanted to get JKS a little more in the way of recognition, and it came down to the simple fact that they meant to, but the webmaster said "whoops" and forgot it. No problem.
And yes, I was wrong. They weren't lumping JKS in the trade school catergory as a value judgement "Well this doesn't belong up here!" but because it truly is a trade school.
Yes, in your opinion JKS might be above the standards of "higher education" but it comes down to a technical issue. JKS teaches basically one thing. Harvard has many and varied courses. I can go to Harvard and never really take an art course. I couldn't go to JKS hoping to learn about comic scripting, and completely avoid ever drawing something. JKS is not a college or university, and that's that.
I agree with many of JamesK's points, so I'm not going to rehash over those.
Yes, I'm sure that the Hopkins Center at Dartmouth paid to have Art Spiegleman there, but he was doing a traveling show/forum/speech at the time, and there are expenses, and he probably didn't buy a new Rolls with the money. Dartmouth doesn't just shell out big money for things like that. No, they waste it elsewhere, but that's a whole different story.
quote:
I mean, after all, if you're going to some other tootie-falooty school that teaches this higher education, well, what are you going to school for...oh, wait, I know...to learn something that will MAKE YOU MONEY (after, of course, these other pompous schools of higher education, take YOUR money).
True, but if that were the only goal, every potential student could make a shload of loot not ever going to college. But my girlfriend isn't dropping 30k a year just to maybe make money in the future. No, she wants to learn new things, ideas, expand her horizons, everything I thought colleges were there for. And she is. If she wanted to just make money, there are crappy jobs that you can make a shload of money in with little or no education. But no one wants to do them forever. Right now, my girlfriend makes a couple hundred a night plus tips waitressing at a local inn. Hell, that's more than I make as a graphic illustrator! Does she like the money? Of course. Does she want to do that forever? Hell naw.
The NACAE wants to do more than just get cartoonists jobs. Yes, they want those artists to make money, fine, no disputing it. But they also want to open up the oportunity for the random universtity student to take a class on comics history. They want that student to have the option to take a course on cartooning. I'm sure they'd be happy if they had a doctor come out of Dartmouth's medical school who took a term of "History of Comics." Is he going to apply it to his trade? Probably not. But will he have learned something about this important medium in our culture? I would hope so. And that, in the end, looks to be one of the major goals of the NACAE.
So is JKS one of the best schools for comics art? I don't think anyone said it wasn't. NACAE seems to want to promote comics courses in universities and colleges. JKS certainly doesn't need help forming a comics cirriculum. But this group want to expand on that, and give everyone, not just the artists (though they do put a lot of weight there), the opportunity to share in the medium. And hell, this medium needs fans right now. I don't believe comics will ever die, but they can shrink into a little ball for a good amount of time.
And while I would be one of those former students who'd "love to pencil Batman," I have no illusions about it either. I'm making right now as a graphic illustrator about as much as I'd ever make as a freelancer for Marvel or DC. Hell, I probably make more. But I want to do it because I have a love for the characters. No student at JKS should have the illusion that they'll become Jim Lee or Todd McFarlane. Those are one in a million shots. Freelancers don't usually get major benefits, I do. If DC called tomorrow and said "pencil!" and I said "okay" and quit my job (as I would not have enough time to do both) I'd be doing it because I love the medium, not because I thought I just struck gold. I would loose my health benefits, dental, etc, and be making probably less than I do now (as I would be a starting penciler), and have no gurantee that I'd even be working on the same book (or the company at all) next month. I doubt I'd get one of those magical exclusive contracts. Did JKS help me get my current job? Sure,the education did. And I didn't sit there in the first year focusing on mainstream comics. I didn't focus on anything but getting the work done and getting out of the school what I could. What I could learn and expand on in myself.
Like I said, only 4 or 5 of my 25 3rd year classmates have ever worked on a mainstream comic. Only a few others ever worked on non-mainstream comics. A few handfuls now work in the art field. And the rest, don't work there at all. But to my knowledge, we're all making money somehow. If these guys focused on only mainstream comics, the numbers would be a lot lower. Luckily JKS doesn't allow you to get tunnel vision. And I believe they do that on purpose.
And I restate my take on the whole commercial vs fine art thing. The best definition I've heard is "Fine art is what is." It's all in the eye of the beholder. In a technical sense, the guy who put the Wheaties box together isn't making fine art. He's a commercial artist. He's selling a product that isn't the art or idea behind the art. Not all fine artists sell their work. However, if a hundred people take that box and say "wonderful!" and want to frame it and put it on their wall (or Warhol and his soup cans) and call it fine art, you aren't going to change their minds, getting blue in the face talking about "the artist didn't die poor." People like what they like, and think what they think. If they say it's fine art, it is to them, and therefore it is. That doesn't mean they're opinion is true of everyone. There is no opinion that everyone shares (would it be an opinion then? Hmmm.). So art classification, like many other things, is in the eye of the beholder. That's the best way of putting it. Because you can't convince me that my opinions are wrong if I truly believe, and I cannot do the same to you.
"Life is a comedy to those who think, and a tragedy to those who feel."
oneGemini Illustration
onegemini.com |
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Seraph
New Member
USA
97 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2003 : 01:53:36 AM
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I only have one thing I want to add to this discussion. Michaelangelo was commissioned(paid) to paint the Sistine Chapel. Does that disqualify him as a fine artist?
Come Son of Jor-El, Kneel before Zod! Snootchie Bootchies! |
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onegemini
Junior Member
USA
181 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2003 : 11:36:35 PM
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quote:
I only have one thing I want to add to this discussion. Michaelangelo was commissioned(paid) to paint the Sistine Chapel. Does that disqualify him as a fine artist?
Come Son of Jor-El, Kneel before Zod! Snootchie Bootchies!
Good point.
I don't know. Did he "die pennieless?" ;)
"Life is a comedy to those who think, and a tragedy to those who feel."
oneGemini Illustration
onegemini.com |
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snafu02
New Member
USA
58 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2003 : 6:13:26 PM
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[/quote]
I don't know. Did he "die pennieless?" ;)
[/quote]
As a matter of fact financially he was pretty poor off but he was rich in friends, I reccomend anyone to read the Agony and the Ecstasy and learn about a great artist in the truist sense of the words.
Anastasia Smith
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"The greater the doubt the greater the artist. Perfect confidence is granted to those less gifted as a consolation prize." |
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snafu02
New Member
USA
58 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2003 : 6:42:40 PM
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As for the current topic being discussed I believe that everyone has had good opinions. Personally I would have to agree that the Kubert School does fall into the trade school category. To me a defining characteristic of a fine art school is that there is as great an emphasis on the history of art as there is on actually creating art in the class room. While teachers such as Alec Stevens and Mike Kraiger (and I had the pleasure of being taught by both) do in fact try to touch on the subject of history and fine art training they do so sparingly and I for one was glad. When I first realized what I wanted to do with my life (create art for a living) I began the usual scouting of art schools as no doubt most of you did. I was disappointed to find that all the schools required numerous classes on art history and other subjects that I had no interest in what so ever. They all seemed more geared to having you graduate with a degree than actually making sure you could feed yourself when you graduated. I was thrilled when I came across an ad in Wizard Magazine about the Joe kubert School. Here it was no nonsense, show up and learn how to draw. So yes while JKS may not actually strengthen the general awareness of comics as a historical art form , it certainly serves it's purpose in teaching people how to create artwork of all kinds, not just comics, and make a living from doing it.
Anastasia Smith
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"The greater the doubt the greater the artist. Perfect confidence is granted to those less gifted as a consolation prize." |
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Speak your mind!
